Sit and Go profiling: Fear the Duck?

A forum member disagress with some poker ebook content in regards to player profiling in tournament indicator.
_________________________

In the e-book he makes a passing comment that "No particular style of player is better than the other" and uses the win at showdown statistic to clarify. He needs to go into more detail, however, because it is quite clear that a player who never bets is at a severe and utter disadvantage. Same goes for a player who all-ins every flop. Nevertheless, both could have 100% win at showdown in 100 hands. Albeit an extreme example, but the point is an obvious one.

Now, he points out that pros like DN can play the gambler style to perfection, and whilst this is true, the same holds for the duck.

First, I'm not sure if Marty states anywhere in the e-book that we are solely discussing 9 seated sngs. Because if we're talking 6-handed, then it is an imperative to play at least 30% of the hands, which would be about average. In this case I guess you would change the parameters of the program and make perhaps >40% vpip loose instead of the default settings. Nevertheless, this was a key point missed, because ducks can dominate the short handed sngs imo.

And I don't mind to be a duck at a full table either (perhaps not quite >30 vpip, but high 20's) . I'd even go as far and say that they are the most dangerous and feared opponents at the table, mostly because of their unpredictability. The neutral AF is something we agree on, as you seem to be in love with Eagles. I agree, because you do not want to be someone who bets too much, and on the other side, of course, not enough.

Yet, who is more feared: a tight smart eagle mostly playing conspicuous hands, or a loose-ish highly unpredictable smart duck (granted both can be unpredictable)? Gamblers/maniacs may be more feared in the short term, but generally their over-betting might be their downfall or seen as a leak. And they tend to not call enough, so betting into them knowing they will mostly raise or fold can make it pretty easy to play a hand against them.

Marty goes on to say:

"The EAGLE and the DUCK are equally measured as neutral, however, the eagle knows why he is neutral and the duck really hasn't a clue and will probably end up as a calling station or a gambler soon enough."

I guess this is to be taken at face value because it's a general remark. But earlier he said that no style is better than the other and that just because a player is loose it does not mean they are bad. So this is an unfair and unfounded bash at my precious duck!! Razz

He said that it's hard to stay at neutral af, but this is actually simply incorrect due to simple mathematics. It is actually quite easy and I have stayed there many times end-to-end in very long tournaments.

Another general and useless comment was that the duck is unbluffable. I can see the general comment towards gamblers to be a valid one, but again, you said there can be smart gamblers...why not give the same courtesy to ducks?

In short: quit bashing daffy, he's the one taking your money without you having a CLUE what he has and what he's going to do.. if he's clever enough Very Happy

Otherwise, interesting read and well done.

______________________________

This may be the case but being a duck in low level poker surely means what Marty says 'they dont know'.

I suppose in higher level tournament a duck can be good too counter TAG players that maybe cant play wel post flop, just speculating

I have never seen a duck be good player in any SNG ive played

_______________________________

It's fine to be general and deal with just low-limits, but he then goes on to discuss Daniel Negreanu like I said in the op.

I've seen quite a few very good ducks in mtts, possibly sngs iirc, and they scare the shite outta me.

_______________________________

doubt you have seen "good ducks". You may have seen lucky ducks.

Lag opposed to Tag neither is "better" as far as being able to win. It is the skill of the individual player that will determine if they win or lose long term.

Now it may be a 'duck' is only a duck as there are not enough hands measured to get a true "read" on the player and his icon will go through changes over time.

The real difference is that TAG is easier to learn and play a good TAG game. While LAG requires more skill and a LOT more post flop skills especially.

_______________________________

I'm talking about long-term ducks.

And ducks aren't lags, no where near as aggressive. I even said my vpip might not even be >30, so I will be neutral/neutral, but close enough to be a duck, so that would be my label.

_______________________________

Loose Neutral I believe is the duck. I know Marty references both LAG/TAG and Loose/Tight when saying neither is better than the other.

What is your concept of long term?

_______________________________

Exactly, Marty says that neither is necessarily better. So if loose isn't bad, and neutral AF is good (Marty loves Eagles) ... then ducks are potentially deadly.

Long term? Maybe 50+ consecutive hands as a duck.

________________________________

50 hands is just over 5 revolutions

i dont think that it is very accurate

_________________________________

Ok interesting discussion here, and I maybe I could review that stuff myself, but I think the responses to the original post are rather accurate and in agreement that a Duck is not a profitable player, short or long term.

Further to that end, I don't think you are going to find many (ANY?) long term Ducks in poker. The premise for any particular game may back-up my claim that one style is no better than the other, if executed well, but most games will not allow you to play like a Duck and win consistently. That player's profile, for that game or series of games will surely shift to Gambler, Calling Station, possibly even Eagle.

A "good player" may have a Duck icon (temporarily) because of deploying a strategy against another, single opponent whereby it is profitable to do so.

If readers of this thread are not familiar with the Sit and Go Strategy ebook it can be downloaded for free at www.SitandGoCertified.com